Colour, Calm and the Room Within the Room

Bobbie (00:05.346)
Welcome to this episode of Designing for the Range. Hannah, I'm gonna come to you first. Can you tell us a little bit about your PhD studies and why you are studying this topic?

Hannah (00:17.011)
Yeah, so my background is in inclusive design. I first became interested in that when studying a BA down at Falmouth University quite a years ago now, which was in sustainable product design. But I focused in on inclusive design as part of that. And I was interested in thinking about design for disability, which then led on to I started a business and connected to that and designing for visual impairment.

And then when I did my master's studies a few years ago, my thesis looked at inclusive clothing design and I was thinking about how clothing could be made more inclusive. And one of those aspects is to do with sensory elements. So that kind of ties in quite naturally to the neurodiversity and neuroinclusivity.

As of last year, I've started doing a PhD in neuro-inclusive colour design. yeah, so just looking at different aspects of the kind of vision environment and how that is impacted by different kind of neuro types, different neuro type profiles.

Bobbie (01:34.219)
It's it's great to have you with us for this conversation because I think it's such a niche topic and probably one that we don't talk about enough. So really looking forward to learning more about that. And David, I'm gonna come to you next. David is one of our fantastic marketplace vendors. So the Mobility Mojo Marketplace is an area for our clients to get exposure to all of our vetted suppliers. So once you complete your assessment with us, we give you recommendations. And then for you to fulfill those recommendations, you can visit our marketplace.

for all of our suppliers and they will help you upscale your accessibility in whatever building it is that you have, be it bathroom accessibility or in David's case, it is Nook Sensory Pods. So David, thanks so much for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about why you started Nook Pods and indeed what they are and what the purpose of them is?

David (Nook) (02:22.3)
Certainly. Thanks. Great to be here, Bobby, and to be speaking with you as well, Hannah. so I started NOC ten years ago out of frustration on behalf of introverts in the workplace, essentially. I felt like the open office environment was stealing people's ability to concentrate. Ironically, stealing our our our connection to each other, because when you take people's walls away and you take their safety away.

Well, they'll put it back on by putting headphones on or by not coming to the office or whatever it is. So what I wanted to do was to create a little space, but I really wanted to strike that balance between being able to step out of the spotlight without leaving the environment. I think that's a critical thing that we're making, still making the mistake. It's kind of like in the old IT world, no one ever got sacked for buying IBB IBM. Well, in the in the workspace world, you know, no one will get criticized for buying pods with doors.

But I still think that we need to not excommunicate and separate people from the environment. So Nook is a little home-shaped pod that's open, that you can sit into. And Hannah, I was inspired as you talked about neuroinclusive clothing. It's like wrapping yourself in a little blanket for a moment, just to protect yourself from the world, just to get a little bit of a quiet mental moment to refresh your mind.

Hannah (03:37.333)
Thanks

David (Nook) (03:45.164)
if you're maybe becoming over anxious in the space to help to calm the nervous system and to have maybe a good conversation but just that little step out space to get you out of the spotlight for a moment.

Bobbie (03:58.829)
And we were all at the Neuroplaces event a few weeks ago, and I got to sit in a nook pod and I can attest that they are very comfortable, very relaxing. And I did feel very calm when I was in one of the nook pods. And you make such a good point, David. We've had this conversation on this series a few times before about how we want to make people feel like they have the space to relax and and to kind of reset their mind and their body in whatever way works for them, but be able to do that by not excluding them.

Hannah (04:09.62)
you

Bobbie (04:26.912)
at the same time. So you should be able to do both at once. And I think NookPods does a really good job of achieving that. Hannah, I want to learn a little bit more about your research and what your research has taught us about how colour and maybe other elements of the environment affects neurodivergent people in the workplace or indeed in the built environment.

Hannah (04:46.572)
Yeah, so at this stage in my PhD I've largely just been reading kind of the existing literature and I've also been talking to people who are working in this space. And I think this is definitely still an emerging area. It was only kind of three years ago that the past 6463 guidelines which are all about this sort of thing were kind of brought out and that's kind of like a starting point, I think.

which is very helpful for lots of people to kind of reference and begin to think about the impact of colour and lighting and other kind of visual aspects on a range of different people. I think the main thing I would really want to get across is just that there's, maybe it's quite easy to make generalisations, but actually every single person is unique and individual and a lot of...

it's kind of be difficult to make kind of blanket statements about exactly what is kind of good for people who are neurodivergent because it really varies person to person. But there are, for example, some some benefits that have been found, for example, around muted colours. So using kind of more like karma kind of feeling colours can help say people who are more hypersensitive.

However, the challenge with that is that if you only use muted colours, then it can make spaces feel quite flat and it can also make it difficult to find your way around a space, particularly larger buildings. So it's also really important to include stronger colours and these can provide benefits to people both through enabling wayfinding.

but also for people who are hyposensitive who require additional sensory stimulation. This is a really important aspect. David is waving his hands there if anyone's listening. Yeah, so we can't just say, yes, just use muted colours everywhere because that actually isn't going to be helpful for everybody. The challenge of very saturated colours, if you use those...

Hannah (07:07.86)
maybe excessively is that they can be quite over-simulating for some people. But I think a lot of things around workplace design, it's maybe more about having different types of space for different types of work and actually having spaces a bit like what David's done with the Nook Pods, having spaces that are more calm, quiet, that people can escape to, dotted around so that they're closely accessible.

and actually just thinking about the movement between different rooms and different spaces and how you can kind of transition from kind of somewhere that's kind of quite stimulating to somewhere that's a bit calmer. So I think there's a lot around kind of transitions. And then there's quite a lot of literature around using nature-based colours. A challenge with that is that that's kind of quite a broad statement.

So like what counts is nature-based, so often that can be kind of green, browns, blues, but that's maybe that's specific to say this country or certain environments. And then also if you think there's actually a lot of, you actually do see a lot of brighter colours as well, for example, in nature. you shouldn't just automatically dismiss the rest of the...

the kind of range of colour that we have available to our eyes as easily as that. And I think the other thing that really impacts colour is the lighting. So if you think about it, we can't see colour without light. So actually the role that light plays is really key in how we experience our environments. So for example, having lots of fluorescent lighting is maybe not very helpful because it can flicker and

Bobbie (08:36.302)
Mm.

Hannah (09:04.212)
If lighting is too cold, that can also make a space not feel so welcoming. So, yeah, mean, there's lots of information you can find online very easily about optimum lighting, but that's kind of like a key consideration alongside colour. And yes.

Bobbie (09:22.402)
Yeah. And I I think it's it's interesting 'cause like w other conversations that we've had in this series, you know, it does seem to always come back to having variety, having options, but also understanding that there is such a fine line and there is a balance that you need to strike with every color group and where every color group kind of belongs in the workplace or in any building really. we know that colors play a crucial role in terms of people's focus and their efficiency and, you know, their their motivation and and where they want to go and where they're kind of

Hannah (09:31.55)
Mm.

Bobbie (09:51.289)
drawn to. you touched on the PAS there, the past there for for a second at the beginning. Can you just for those of us who who might not know what that is, can you explain to what does that stand for and how does it affect the research that you do, for example, and how might it be affecting people without them realizing it?

Hannah (10:09.797)
And so the sub-head is designed for the mind. So it's essentially a set of guidelines that have been developed in order to help people to think through what kind of different sensory aspects and other aspects that kind of can impact people's experience of spaces.

Yeah, it's, yeah. I don't know if that sums it up.

David (Nook) (10:36.475)
It's a it's a phenomenal document. It's like it's like it's like a Bible almost. It's extraordinary. Once it when it came out recently, I devoured it. And it's been so illustrative and informative, but it shows you, to your point, Anna, like people aren't designing considerately. Like they're for example, you know, their brand is red and therefore the whole interior is going to be red because they want the place to be soaked.

in brand. And it's important that your workplace indeed allows people to imbibe your brand, but that's culture and caring about people as well as just a lick of paint on the space. But the information is right there. It's available to us. And so this whole thing, us having this podcast, which I'm very grateful about as well, and neuroplaces and this whole moving this conversation forward, the recent Neuro Inclusive Design Collective, which has started in Shoreditch.

This all helps to illuminate so that when people go, How shall we design our workplace? that they realise that there's a resource here, people like Hannah, people like the documents like the pass, consultants, research search terms, use your AI. They're st starting to get to a point where there's no excuse now to think holistically, to think universally, to think inclusively and create something that's better.

not just for neurodivergent users in the space, but ultimately, as proven, for everybody.

Bobbie (12:10.668)
And w what were some key takeaways that you got then from the accessibility bible, we'll call it. I think that's a cool name. what what were some of your kind of standout moments and when you were reading through it, David?

Hannah (12:17.383)
You

David (Nook) (12:21.563)
I see I think I'll get a slap on the wrist for calling it that probably from Gene and people who are involved. But it's it's indeed meant to be a starting point. It is just guidance, it's not law. I hope elements of it will be at some point. But fundamentally, it's it's it's about variety, but it's also about choice. Because that's what variety does. And it's about choice and it's a little bit about control. So being able to

First of all, before you even go to a space, know what you're going to expect. That anticipation is a huge part of a person's experience in a built environment. I don't know what it's going to be like, and therefore it could be terrible, and therefore it worries me. So informing in advance, I did a I did a presentation at Heathrow and the Compass Center last year, and it was brilliant in the way that they informed me in advance with imagery and video and

information and conversations about what I was going to expect when we got there, what the space was like, what it looked like standing on stage and looking at the panelists, how many people were going to be there, who was going to meet me. Information in advance is incredibly valuable to someone who might to anybody but to someone in particular who might be anxious about what they're going to meet when they when they get there. And then when they get there, I think there's a couple of big ingredients. And like Hannah said, it's about allowing a person

Maybe a choice of where to sit or how to sit or when to turn up can also be a an an element. what they meet, what their colleagues are expected of them, what communication there's been. Like you get on a flight and it says there's somebody on there with a nut allergy, you're happy not to eat nuts, right? But if there's some at least understanding of the culture of the workplace, expectations, one of the things I often hear is like people maybe maybe like with our nook.

we put into a science park. And one of the issues that they had at first was like some people are going in there and camping all day. And okay, well, first of all, why is that a problem? Because that's not what we want. Okay, why don't you want it? Because we want more people to be able to use it. Okay, well, why are they using it that way? What does that tell you about the space? And second of all, did you ask people to limit their use to a certain amount of time? No. Okay, well stop expecting people to do stuff you've imagined.

David (Nook) (14:46.588)
But not communicated.

Bobbie (14:48.938)
It's really frustrating when people don't follow the imaginary plan that you have in your head that you haven't told anyone else about.

David (Nook) (14:52.9)
Yes, exactly. Exactly that. So ex so a lot of it is about just really good communication, opening up to ideas. And at the end of the day, guidelines are all great, but as the pass itself says, the best way to design is with the people who are going to use the space. And that's not just in the consultant consulting phase, but that's also through the life of the space.

Hannah (14:53.138)
No

Bobbie (14:57.75)
Doesn't everyone else know?

Hannah (15:12.562)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David (Nook) (15:20.58)
Allowing it to adapt and evolve and giving people a little bit of control over

Bobbie (15:27.148)
It's that nothing about us without us piece, which I think we all keep on coming back to, but it's because it's such a powerful sentiment. And I know at Mobility Mojo, our clients have their accessibility hub and they have the ability to make all of their accessibility and neuroinclusion information about their buildings available to anyone that is visiting their buildings. So anyone who has a meeting or an interview or an for any reason they're going into one of their spaces.

The they can get that accessibility and neuroinclusion information in advance, which what you were saying, David, enables them to plan accordingly to bring whatever they think they're going to need. If it says the reception area is going to be really loud and we don't have noise cancelling headphones for you to borrow, okay, great. I'm going to bring my own then. Or I'm going to make sure that I I find something to shield me from the noise when I enter that space. It's just about making sure that people can use the space in whatever way it was intended for in the best way that suits them.

And you you touched on it there, David, about people using the Nook Pods for different reasons and in different ways. I wonder in your experience of having this Nook Pods, what ways do you see people use them for? And what's maybe one of the most creative or efficient ways you see them being used?

David (Nook) (16:40.822)
great question. My gosh. Well, across let's say, let's pick a day, a typical day. I see people come in and use it as a kind of a space to crash into after the commute and to sort of settle themselves and sort of anchor themselves in the space. Do a little bit of planning, have a coffee. I I know this because it was someone reached out to me on LinkedIn and said they were, you know, they had they hadn't had a diagnosis about about their ADHD and other things at that point.

But it was as soon as they were put in, they immediately identify this as a little alcove that they can climb into just to plan their day. And we know the effect of being able to take a moment and plan that it can have on the brain's ability, positive or negative, over the rest of the day, if you can or can't do that. So getting that right. Little prep space ahead of meetings, a little decompression space after meetings, a hop a place to hop into to have a quick call because you don't want to maybe it's a quiet office.

In this case, and you don't actually want to be broadcasting your video calls to your colleagues, you feel a bit self-conscious in that kind of environment, or it's a noisy space with distractions and people can go, Bobby, have you got that report? And you're like, I was deep in my I was in I was I was in the middle of some really intense stuff there now and I've had to jump out mentally and going back in isn't easy. So you when you hop into a nook, what it kind of does is you know, is you go, where's where's Bobby? she's in the nook. I'll catch her later.

Bobbie (17:54.326)
Yeah.

Hannah (17:55.762)
you

David (Nook) (18:09.123)
It creates this little bit of a signal between people without a big red traffic light system, for example. And then, you know, also I think we don't do a very good job in our workplaces of realizing that we send people home with all sorts of baggage and, you know, all sorts of stresses that they've built up over the course of the day and then they end up having a tiresome, you know, poor evening at home. So I also love to see it being used as a kind of a decompression space at the end of the day, just to

Bobbie (18:15.254)
Mm.

David (Nook) (18:40.549)
shed some of the stuff and go home in a like you know mindful state.

Bobbie (18:43.092)
Yeah. No, it's such a good point.

Hannah (18:44.572)
Mm.

Bobbie (18:47.19)
Yeah, no, it is such a good cause that that's what I use my commute for. but my commute is a walk. So, you know, if if something doesn't go to plan on the walk, all of a sudden then I have no decompression time and I get home and I'm like, okay, what? Well, like, where's my separation? so it's great to hear that that's something it's being used for. And I know they were at the Neuroplaces event, there was multiple there, and I thought it was really nice. now David was the

David (Nook) (18:53.53)
Love it.

Bobbie (19:12.044)
Busiest man in the place. So I did have to wait like 45 minutes to get into one. But it was lovely when I eventually did get in and just to actually take a minute and go, okay, I'm not at my stand. I'm not standing. it it was great to just calm the mind then for a few seconds. So I think that was also a really good way that they were used for a busy event space. this next question is for both of you, but Hannah, I'll come to you first. And I'm just curious about the crossover between your research and then the practical elements of.

practising your own inclusion in t in terms of where do you think they meet?

Hannah (19:47.634)
Yeah, so actually, so I was recently talking to an interior designer and she was kind of pointing out that often clients can opt for them kind of more like clean looking options, so like grays and whites maybe rather than going for the kind of colour options. So sometimes it's actually down to the clients rather than necessarily the practitioner in terms of the design of a space.

And that isn't safe to not use whites and greys. So for example, you can have slightly more color in those, like using undertones in white, for example, that can be helpful for kind of broader spaces. And it's mostly just not using, say, like brilliant white. So the brightest of whites is generally helpful.

And I think, I mean, you've kind of touched on this a little bit already, but in terms of the importance of talking to end Jesus in all settings, that can also be extremely difficult to actually implement in practice, and particularly in public spaces. And of course, you know, if it's a big space, say like a hospital or something like that, there's so many different people using that space, it would be impossible to involve kind of all stakeholders or something like that. And I think, again, I've touched on this a little bit, but like the kind of

blank application of, maybe just using the generalisations from like the path 6463 could lead to say only using muted tones or like, or just kind of forgetting other aspects such as the kind of wayfinding aspect. Or I think it also mentions about, or this designer is pointing out that it mentions, mentions about like maybe red isn't always helpful, but actually it really depends on the context, whether

should or shouldn't use red and actually red can also be helpful for say wayfinding as well. it's not quite as simple as just taking one simple statement and then applying it as a blanket thing. It's much more to do with proportions and kind of yeah other aspects of like colour theory and colour harmony. Yeah and I know I was also interested to read, I was reading

Bobbie (21:56.182)
Mm.

Hannah (22:01.689)
So it's Crampaint's neurodiversity report from last year, which they did a survey of 250 architects. And one thing that they pointed out was that, so firstly, the architects believe that there is a gap in the market for interior designers who have a specialism around designing for neurodivergent needs. But also I was interested to read that the architects surveyed, they ranked colour as the most important thing to consider when designing spaces for neurodivergent people, which I do think it is important, but I...

other things I've read that isn't the number one thing so it feels like there's a little bit of a mismatch between maybe what people kind of know or like think and then actually what the research really says. So for example like lighting came quite a lot further down the list and I'd say that's potentially more key as is kind of considering like audio kind of considerations.

which again I think like something like the nook pod that also helps to kind of shield from some of the audio side as well as creating that kind of space. So yeah, there are a few things I've observed.

Bobbie (23:08.834)
Yeah. Yeah, no, i vr very real practical things there. And David, I'll come to you then with with the same question. Where do you think the research and then the practical element meet?

David (Nook) (23:19.515)
Well, for me, everything Hannah said resonates and then I wanna add a layer of proof. because one of the things that we learned early on is that you just we're constantly hitting the same obstacles every time we have the conversation, every time we talk to somebody who ultimately typically usually isn't in isn't the end user. So the pe the person signing the check is often not the person who's who's who's who's using the space, often, not always.

smaller the company is, the more likely it is that they are. And that's an important point that's worth visiting. How we make these solutions work for SMEs and smaller companies where the majority of people work, not just to corporates with large budgets and designers that they can bring on board and global employee wellbeing specialists, etc. etc. Which is all very important too. I'm not neging anything at all. Just we need to mm realise that the real world also has

As you know, a business owner and an office manager Googling stuff. So how do we meet them in the real world? but for us also it's super critical that you work with people who know what the heck they're talking about. I've never considered myself an expert. I'm a jack of all trades. Maybe master being a jack of all trades, but not a master of any particular trade. And so it's really important to work with, like for example, on the Transport for London project, we work with Autistica, on the sensory nook stop that we have in a shopping mall.

Bobbie (24:20.75)
Mm.

Hannah (24:35.921)
You

David (Nook) (24:46.682)
We work with Autism Plus. when we're doing events and or even installations with customers and we want feedback, we work with Cambridge University Sense Building, Mateo and his wonderful organization to help gather you know the feedback and we interview and we talk and we get out there and we adapt and adjust and we change the product over time and we use that to create, you know, feedback, voice of customer that that we can then use to to hopefully motivate.

for change. But I think you know it comes from the voice of the users themselves. And even the best ideas that I think I've had go out into the real world and I realize very quickly that lived experience is completely different to made up in a lab. And it's really important to get out and see what's happening in the

Bobbie (25:33.614)
It's it's humbling. And I think as what you were saying there, David, basically was, you know, how does the research and the practical element meet? Well, you need to make sure they do meet, is is is really when it happens, you know, because you have to facilitate that relationship and you have to nurture that relationship and make sure that what you were saying, you're working with the people in the community in every area where you're trying to bring it into. So it's great to to hear that that work is being done.

David (Nook) (25:58.523)
Yeah, I think I think we're even helping organizations understand themselves.

Bobbie (26:02.892)
Yeah, yeah, and their and their target market and and you know, why they're doing what they what they are doing and how they could be doing it better. And what you were saying about the product always evolving, keep it evergreen, keep it fluid, make sure you always have the ability to learn from those around you and from learn from those that are using the product so that you can adapt it to to make it more successful and work even better.

David (Nook) (26:25.776)
Truly. And I think as an organization too, you can take the opportunity to orient things towards what you want the world to be. So act as though you want others to act. It is about a for us, it's about a product. We make a thing and you know, we sell and and rent out the thing, but it's also a vehicle for amazing conversations. It gets me on stage motivating for change. It gets people thinking about stuff. It gets people coming into workspace and going.

Someone's cared about me. I feel a greater sense of belonging here. I feel safer. I feel protected. There's things we can do. And I feel like we're leaving a lot of that on the table. And I would like to see us take advantage of those opportunities more.

Bobbie (27:07.574)
And speaking about taking advantage of these opportunities, David, I'll stick with you for a second. What is a small change that an organization could make on a on a practical level if they're trying to be more neuro inclusive in their practice and trying to foster a more neuro inclusive environment in their workplace?

David (Nook) (27:26.986)
that's a phenomenal question. And there's I'm so you want a quick and easy change. I'll give you two. no matter what the workplace is, I guarantee that if they look at it with slightly different eyes tomorrow morning, they'll be able to make a couple of key changes. The first one would be: make sure if you don't, to slightly reorient your workstations so that there's places where people can sit with their back to the wall.

If you're making it absolutely impossible for anybody to sit with their back to the wall, because you want to drive community and you want to create great, big communal spaces where everybody's connected together. And maybe you're even a little bit stuck in a form and in a factory kind of mentality that if I can see you, then I've done my job of making sure you're here and present presenteism, essentially. But if you can just reorient the space slightly so that people don't have to worry about

Doors opening and closing behind them, people walking up behind them. Like it's their colleagues, I get that they don't feel actual threat, but there's a part of your brain that's monitoring for safety at all times. And the more exposed you are, the more active that is. And the more safe you feel, the more that bit can go quiet. And it's been seen, it's been shown that other parts of your brain then that we want to work, that we want to be able to access, can be accessed and can be utilized. So literally just

Providing a simple element of of of safety in that regard. And then the other idea very, very quickly is for the cost of a of a print, go on PowerPoint. Other slides v programs are available and type the word library or quiet zone and print it out and choose a corner. I'm being really facetious and little bit glib, but just choose a corner. Now this is important. This is important.

Hannah (29:15.447)
You

David (Nook) (29:19.598)
You know, I want you to do it way better than this, but you want it cheap and fast that we can do tomorrow and stick it up in a certain area and choose that area correctly. And maybe if there's blinds that you can dim the area or you can turn down lights to make it s you know psychologically feel quieter. But what you do there is one, you give people a destination to go to when they want quiet, and two, you give them permission to point at the sign when Dave some sales comes barreling in with his stupid story from his commuter or whatever it is. See

I am Dave from sales and I created Nook to protect people from the likes of me.

Bobbie (29:54.319)
Yeah, I was gonna say you said that to me in your places, I thought that was brilliant. I was like, Why did you start out? to get away from myself.

Hannah (29:54.436)
You

David (Nook) (30:01.487)
Exactly. And it and so it is also a hypo sensitive decompression space where I go and it's like it's the one place where I'm not being overstimulated and then feeling like I need to be doing a million things at once. But it's also the space that you can get away from the from the po folks like me. But if you don't have that, just create a little space that says, You can come here. It's okay.

Hannah (30:01.551)
Hahaha

Bobbie (30:22.092)
Yeah, and I think that's such a good point that you make that don't be afraid to assign purposes to areas in your building. like I know in our office it's very clear what's the kind of creative, more free-flowing area, and then where the desks are and then where we have lunch. It's not a massive area, but it is segregated, it is segmented, and everyone knows what each space is is for, essentially. So I think that's such a good point. Two very good points, David and Hannah, I'll come to you.

what are some kind of CapEx light things that people could be more aware of? Thinking more maybe in terms of lighting and colour, like because I think people don't focus on that as much. They might not be as aware of it. Particularly when it comes to colour, they might focus on more of that from like a style point of view. But how can we actually use those elements to harness productivity and a sense of calm in work?

Hannah (31:13.577)
I think it kind of relates a bit to what David was saying in terms of just think about the functionality of different spaces, like what do you want each space to be used for and the colour that you choose can reflect that. So you can use maybe some brighter colours in spaces that are more communal or like for kind of brainstorming or like, you know, just like stuff that is being done together that maybe you want a bit more energy.

But then also it's really important having those quieter spaces and those segmented. Another really important thing is just actually giving individuals ways to control their own working environment. having hot desking, for example, is maybe not ideal for most people. Or it can be useful, but for most people it's more helpful to your own space, have your own desk.

and actually be able to say control the lighting levels, control the colour of that space in some way. And so for example, like some people, including myself, I would always throw a table sitting next to a window, like I love having natural lights, but that isn't true for everybody. So actually just talking to your employees and find out what their preferences are. And then it might be a case of slightly...

slightly reordering the office in that sense so that people that actually prefer to not be near too much natural light can sit further in to the building of people that really do benefit from being next to natural light can sit closer there. And I mentioned already about fluorescence lighting, but if you can just change the bulbs to be a more warm and friendly light that isn't flickering.

Bobbie (33:06.326)
Mm.

Hannah (33:06.415)
That's a really key thing to do.

David (Nook) (33:10.957)
Yeah, I you remind me of something there, Hannah, a conversation that came up the other day that I wanted to just point out. You mentioned the word preferences. It's a really useful word, actually. We I think we're a little bit we're a little bit focused on neurodivergent minds as opposed to neurodiversity, which is everybody. And we're trying to extract from an organization who here is neurodivergent.

Bobbie (33:11.65)
Yeah.

Hannah (33:14.51)
Hmm.

Hannah (33:20.238)
in.

David (Nook) (33:40.619)
And what are your needs? But we could look at it from a preferences point of view across the organization. And out of that you will notice there are probably different neurodivergent profiles. But just talking about preferences is more about what you want, how we can help you be more comfortable in the environment. And you wouldn't have to disclose if you're just talking about preferences. That might be a useful way for.

Hannah (33:59.844)
Yes.

Bobbie (34:03.702)
It's such a good point.

Hannah (34:03.735)
Yeah, like considering, I was going to say considering sensory profiles, it is that everyone can fit into those in some way and that's maybe much more helpful. Also, because there might also be people who don't realise they're neurodiverse, they might not realise, like maybe it's less to do with what the particular label is and much more to do with what is someone's actual experience of the space and what would help them to use it better.

David (Nook) (34:29.792)
And it it avoids that we were talking about it previously. We it avoids that whole thing of like if you've met one person with autism, well all you've done is met one person with autism, everybody's different. So you so what? You know you have X number of people with autism. What are you gonna do? Design an autistic friendly there is no such space. It really comes down to individuals' needs. And another thing to bear in mind, sorry, very, very quickly too, is that our needs change depending on what we're doing. So, Hanni, you alluded to it.

Hannah (34:37.55)
Mm.

Hannah (34:41.22)
Yeah.

Hannah (34:44.804)
Mm.

Hannah (34:49.582)
Yeah.

Hannah (34:57.06)
Yes.

David (Nook) (34:59.79)
For creativity, for focus and deep work, for wanting to drive the water cooler moment, for you know, when we're in a group setting, a meeting setting, a tiny meeting setting, a community setting, they all have they all do different things to to our brains. So to say we're going to take all these things into consideration and we're going to design a workplace that includes all those things, and now you can sit there and be happy.

What'll actually make me happy is being able to move around between spaces for me and what will make someone else happy is being able to know where they're going to sit every day and what someone else will make somebody else happy again is another different thing. So you'd keep all those things in mind. I think if you design for that with some dexterity too, I think you'll you'll you'll have a better chance of succeeding.

Bobbie (35:45.41)
Yeah. And I like I think

Hannah (35:45.551)
think it's little bit ties in, sorry, with them. Also what you said about designing for introverts, there's also, even if you use the introvert, extrovert kind of setting that also kind of connects with these different profiles in some way, I think. Yeah.

Bobbie (35:49.271)
Yeah.

Bobbie (36:02.35)
Yeah, I I know for for myself, for example, I don't have a neurodivergent diagnosis that I know of, who knows? but open plant seeding for me would be a nightmare because I can't see. So if I was to come into an office every single day and my guide dog was to have to find a seat for me that was free, that would be a a real stressor for me every day that would be on my mind as I was walking in every single day. Whereas I know when I come into the office, I have my place, she has her bed, it's great, and we get the work done.

so but again, like I said, I don't have a diagnosis on paper that I know of, but because I don't, then it would be wrong of people to to assume that, okay, well, she can't do open plan, so X, Y, and Z. You know, so I think it it's such a good point that when we switch out maybe the the term to for preferences, it's actually just how we all work in different spaces. Even now, for example, I'm not at my desk. I've had to go into a quiet room because I'm I'm recording this and I'm I'm doing a few meetings. Whereas

Hannah (36:43.118)
Hmm.

Bobbie (36:57.526)
If I was just doing kind of, you know, admin bits, I could do that at my desk. So I need a different setting for for different tasks. I think we have covered this slightly, but it is the last question. So Hannah, I'll come to you. what is something you would like to see done in the future in the neuroinclusion space?

Hannah (37:14.794)
And yeah, I mean, I've said this already, really, but I think just the main thing is just to actually for people to talk to their employees about what they actually need and want. And to act on those preferences. Yeah, and also just with really think about the functionality of the space when it comes to colour and lighting, like what is it you actually really want to use that space for and then designing that accordingly, rather than it kind of all being a kind of blanket.

Bobbie (37:25.294)
Yeah.

Hannah (37:44.239)
blanket space and then also just considering how to enable clear wayfinding if it's a bit if it is a bigger building and how are people finding their way around and a bit like David touched on earlier about just having advanced information as well so providing that for people who are coming to your office or your space or whatever and just so they know exactly what to expect and where to go and that reduces some of that anxiety I think.

Bobbie (38:13.944)
Yeah, and like I said, we we know from our own clients that the accessibility hub being made available to to visitors in advance saves so much hassle and it really does allow people to prepare more adequately. And in terms of wayfinding, as a blind person in the chat, I would just also encourage people to use other elements, not just signage for wayfinding. So let's lean into, you know, lighting, scent, sound, textures.

Hannah (38:32.366)
Hmm.

Bobbie (38:38.166)
And because they they can all play a role. And David, the the final question to you as well what would you like to see done in the future in the neuro inclusion space?

David (Nook) (38:45.666)
Yeah, so two quick ones on this. one very self serving, which you can probably anticipate already before I say it. But the first one is just to acknowledge that organizations have a pyramid structure and certain types of personalities rise to the top, usually the loud ones. And so I want to just acknowledge that a little bit and just be like send a message out there to say don't use yourself as the avatars ever of everybody else, just because you like a thing.

Doesn't mean everybody else is gonna like a thing, you know? There's a little bit of, you know, do as I say, don't do as I do that happens at the top. I've got my office, but I want you all in a, you know, open plan space. So I've got a space to retreat to and I can come out when I need to, but you all have to handle that and you don't get the same privileges as I do. Well, why do you like that? Why does that work for you? That would also work for others. But also, you know, to Hannah's point, you know, you have to every organization is different.

Tech company, finance company, sales and marketing company, you know, it'll it'll lean in certain directions, but every organization is different. So get to know your own organization. And then the last one comes from, as I say, it is a bit self serving, but it comes from Magda Mustafa's Aspects, which is the world's first architecture guidance for autism. It's extraordinary work. And she was on stage in Dublin at the Inclusive Futures event recently. She said something, and I just thought, I'm using that. That's phenomenal.

Bobbie (39:47.726)
Mm.

David (Nook) (40:11.671)
She said, one thing that's just grossly missing at every corner in our built environment, there's is and that she would recommend is an abundance of alcoves. Because you've got these great big open boxes and you've got all these things going on, and then you get to your destination and you close your door, like, my God, thank God I'm home or thank God I'm at my place. But all the way along it, everywhere you go, it's all open, it's all exposed, there's nowhere to hide, there's nowhere to get offstage.

And so you use this, she used this expression. And the word abundance was really important too, because an abundance means that there's something then wherever you need it. Whenever you need it, there's one for you. And that's something that I noticed too, that no matter how many damn nooks we put in places, there's always people going, I can't get in one to your point, Bobby. So it shows we're missing something and there's an ingredient missing in the ingredient missing in the built environment. And 10 years after starting this, I I honestly hoped that.

Bobbie (40:53.462)
Hm, yeah.

David (Nook) (41:03.745)
we would be a lot further along with how we build our environments and that we consider these alcohols and as an as an important ingredient in the built environment. That would be a change that and it will do me out of business and I'll be very happy because the world will have changed. But that's what I that's the big change that I would like to see.

Bobbie (41:16.598)
Yeah, yeah. And it it's such a great one. and actually, as well, if you haven't heard Magda speak on her framework, it is absolutely fantastic. And I invite you all to to go back and listen to the episode that we did have Magda and her colleague Fiona early on from the world's first autism friendly university, which is DCU. so we we have had that conversation with those two on this podcast series as well. So please do go back and listen because it is it is fantastic. So David and Hannah, thank you both.

Hannah (41:17.463)
You

Bobbie (41:46.162)
So much for joining me on this episode of Designing for the Range. Really, really insightful and very practical conversation. I think there's loads of food for thought there. And I hope that everyone has learned one or two things that we can take forward into our everyday lives. Another reminder that if you haven't visited the Mobility Mojo marketplace where the Nook Pods and loads of other

vetted vendors are located, and please do visit it and because it does empower you to make your environments even more neurofriendly and accessible as well. So please do visit the Mobility Mojo marketplace and make sure to keep up to date with all of our movements on socials and the next episodes and webinars within this Designing for the Range series. Thank you both so much.

David (Nook) (42:24.013)
Thank you, Bobby. Thank you, Hannah.

Hannah (42:24.142)
Thanks for having me.