What does a neuroinclusive space really feel like?

We're going to learn about how you can make your building more.

Hey Sarge, the director of the court leadership of H O K Architects. And then we are also joined by our own Noelle Daly, who is our Chief Compliance and Standards Officer. So before we go on to the questions, I want to give you a little bit of insight as to how we came up with the name for this series. So Mobility Mojo has just launched our new neuroinclusive measurement tool. So I hope most of you will know that we've been measuring the physical accessibility of spaces for many years now, and it's something that we're very passionate about. But we did spot that no one was really measuring how a space made you feel and how neuroinclusive a space was. So Noelle and Kay, together with many more people, worked very hard to create our brand new set of questions that enable us to measure the neuroinclusivity of a space. So that is where the first part of the title came from. And why we chose the word range is we have just come back from the Neuroplaces event in London as part of the Shortage Design Week. And we got to speak to lots of experts and people in the field that week, and they were all using the word range when they were referring to spaces should be designed for multiple types of people. So we do need to start moving away from this idea that one size fits all when it comes to spaces. Actually, loads of different people thrive in loads of different spaces, and we should be endeavouring to create that environment in every building that we're in. So that's where the word range come from. So with that little introduction out of the way, I'm now going to move on to the questions. So the first question is for both Kay and Noelle. Kay, I can start with you if that's okay. When we think about neuroinclusion, what is something that, in your experiences, businesses usually miss?

I I think a lot of companies plan for the average person doing the average thing. And as you pointed out, there is no kind of typical average person and there's no typical task today. I think we really need to create a range or a spectrum of spaces for people to be. So in many cases, you go and there is a single lighting level or a single acoustic level or a single color palette throughout the entire space. And having little variations in areas can be really, really important, whether it's temperature, light, uh sound, uh, materiality, giving people spaces that are a little bit calmer, a little bit lower stimulating, and some areas that are higher stimulating. And I think one of the biggest things people make, even if you understand that concept, people often will say, Okay, well, people that are neurodivergent uh are over-stimulated or hypersensitive, and so they dumb everything down and they try to make it very plain and very simplistic. But nobody wants boring spaces. And there are a lot of people that actually need more stimulation, they need to be around buzzy environments, they need to move, they need to fidget, they need to physically be able to interact. So I think that is probably one of the biggest things that that most companies miss is they're designing for the average and there is no average anymore.

And I suppose when you put it like that, like even when you think about any single room at any given time, think about how many people are in that room, all different clothes sizes, all different shoe sizes, different hair colours. How are we all expected to fit into the to the one same environment? Noelle, I wonder what what would your answer be to that question? What are businesses missing in Euroinclusion?

I think um businesses can sometimes misunderstand that um it's not always an expensive outlay to make um a space accessible and inclusive for everyone. So there's lots of quick wins um like dimmable lights or light zoning. Um rearranging furniture is a lovely one where you can just arrange for quiet areas and you can put plants or screens uh to separate areas. Um clear signage is obviously really important in any building, and swapping out busy rugs or you know, very loud patterns, and so it can it can there can be quick wins, but I think it's also important to remember that the physical environment also overlaps with the sensory environments. For example, if uh an office has a pod, but if the pod has a step up into it, someone in a wheelchair can't use that space. So where we would sort of say, well, if you have a number of pods and one of them is flat and it doesn't have a step, then it's inclusive, so it can suit everybody. Um so it's it's not always an expensive outlay. And if uh sometimes companies can think, okay, I have a pod or a quiet room, that's enough, the box is ticked, but it really isn't. It goes back to what you're saying. It is about the whole building, and it's about the lighting and the acoustics, the wayfinding, the colour patterns. Um, and so it's looking at the whole building as an inclusive space and how it feels, you know, how people feel there and how they can thrive. So yeah.

Noelle, can I just add on to that? Because I think you gave a great example, and I want to I want to say yes, and so let's assume that you're worried about people's ability to focus and concentrate. So you create a whole series of whether it's you know pods or or phone booths that people can go into. But if I'm hyposensitive, I need additional stimulation. Our research has shown that a lot of those individuals do not like being in small confined spaces. They find it stifling, there's no airplugs, they feel like they're in a fishbowl, they can't move, they can't fidget. And so, for someone that is hyposensitive who also needs to concentrate and focus, if that is the only option you're giving them, that is a misfit for them. And and on the other side of this, there are a lot of individuals, you know, you cannot open a design magazine without seeing an example of this, where designers want to make those fun spaces for and encourage people to use them so they put in like crazy colors or wild patterns or graphics, and you literally have just short-circuited the person that you've designed the space for who was trying to get away from overstimulating things. Now you've locked them in a small space with that thing that is overwhelming them. So just giving people a phone booth is not enough. You need to be very, very intentional about who you're designing that for, how you're designing it to meet your needs, and understand that that might fit some people, but other people might need an area off to the side where they can move, they can fidget, they can sit in in, you know, they can rock, they can write on the wall, but they're a little bit off the beaten path so that they're not getting distracted and and they can focus.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I think it's such a good point, Noelle, as well, about bringing up the intersectionality, and you know, because I think it's something that people will will move past really quickly. They won't even realize what they're doing. They'll think, okay, great, we've got a little pod so people can focus, but they might never have thought about the fact that maybe there's someone in a wheelchair that would really work very well in a pod, but because they haven't thought about the step leading up to it, um, they haven't given them that opportunity. So I think such a good point. And you've both touched on well, really, what I what I spoke about in terms of defining the range. You know, a space should suit a range of different people and you should have a range of different options. Kay, I'll come to you now. When we think about a space that really has been designed for the range, how would you tell if a space has been designed for the range and what does a neuroinclusive space usually present as?

So I I think um neuroinclusive spaces typically present as giving people a little bit of some options and variety, some choice, and a little bit of control. So if I go into a space and it's like, all right, you were assigned to this spot, you have there's no other area for you to sit, like this is it, go sit here, and you just got rows and rows of the same thing, and you're not taking into account that that person that you've just assigned to sit in that spot on a busy corridor across from a conference room has a sensitivity to sound or visual distractions. That that person's ability to function has just plummeted because you randomly assign them to a space. But if I have a little bit of option and choice, if I can say, you know what, I I really get very distracted by people walking by or the sound coming here, or I don't feel psychologically safe with my back being exposed to this wide open space. But if I can just sit over here where I can position my back so nobody's sneaking up behind me and I'm away from the sound, and people are constantly walking by me, I can function at a much higher level. Just that ability to choose kind of where it is in the space that you might be for the given task and for your needs, that's what a neuroinclusive space looks like. And and now let's just let's play this out. There are some people, you know, we always say, access to natural daylight.

Yeah.

Natural daylight in some places can be overwhelming. If I were to open the curtains in the space right now, we would just be flooded with light coming in, and it's overwhelming. And so some people actually need to be able to tone that down and to have spaces that maybe are a little bit dimmer. Some people want to be in a space that has a little bit of energy and buzz in it. So again, it's that options and variety, choice, and some control over the environments that you're in. That's what neuroinclusive space typically looks like. I mean, I could go on for hours, but that's that's like a high-level 101. If you were going to do one thing, what would it be? That would be it.

And it's yeah, because we at Mobility Mojo we work with loads of different businesses who have loads of different types of buildings that are for loads of different functions. Um and I guess we we our clients have the option to use the accessibility hub, which gives everyone the choice to make their accessibility information public to those who are coming into the building. So I suppose that is something that the businesses can do to enable their visitors to kind of plan in advance, go, okay, it says that this is a loud environment, but they don't have any noise-cancelling headphones, so I'm gonna bring my own, for example. But when we were at NeuroPlaces, we were asking people how would you know a space is neuroinclusive? So I want to give you a detailed scenario in that when you come into an office building, say, so you have a you're not you don't work there, but you have a meeting with with a member of staff there, and you come in and it's a really big lobby. What can that business do to give you a sign to say, hey, this is a safe place? We we we're gonna give you options in the experience that you're about to have. What's something that they can bring into the design of their the first floor of their building that anyone will experience? How can they make it clear there?

So I'm gonna say that going to an airport, going anywhere that you've never been before, is stress-inducing and and high anxiety because you don't know what to expect. Where am I gonna be able to park? Is it is it gonna be a long walk? How am I gonna be able to get in? What what do I expect? What's gonna happen? All of those questions that are filling your head are increasing your level of anxiety. And so anything and everything that we can do before you even leave your house to help make it clear what you are going to encounter can reduce that anxiety and stress, right? So sending people an email in advance saying, you know, this is how you might arrive by cab and what you're gonna experience, this is how you would get there by by public transportation, by train, by by bus, etc. And then once you get here, here's the experience that you are going to encounter. Any of that that we can reduce, that unknown factor is important. And then once you get into a space, having the ability to just kind of ground yourself. So there is a reason that buildings have a lobby and most houses have a foyer. Even small apartments have a arrival space, right? Because we're transitioning from one thing to another, and that transition time, people need to just kind of reset ground themselves, and then okay, now I'm in a different part of my journey, and what is that gonna be? So bobbies that might be more welcoming or have an area off to the side that you can just kind of connect, and then have lots of information sharing in a variety of ways, whether it's app, whether it's an interactive map that you can have, anything that can help me understand how do I navigate, where am I, where are the bathrooms, where are all of those things that I need are really critical to helping people feel at ease and to feel comfortable in spaces.

And and so now we're inside the building. So when you've you've done lots of work with loads of businesses as well, so if we consider light, smell, temperature, wayfinding, um, and the sound, in your experience, which one of those elements do businesses usually overlook?

Uh well, I'm I'm gonna tell you that our research that we've just done on neuroesthetics, so people are being inundated by 11 million bits of sensory information every second. And we cannot consciously process even a fraction of that, which means that we are subconsciously uh processing all of that. And so when you walk into a space, you have a physical reaction to that space. So if I walk in and it is darker and narrower to the left, and there's a hallway to the right that is brighter and maybe a little bit wider, 90% of people will instinctively turn and start walking right, right? So when we think about wayfinding, the way that we design a space should be intuitively leading you into the right direction without you even consciously understanding why you're doing it, you just instinctively start to move in those directions. So lighting is a very, very powerful um thing. So is so is sound. If you're going to a conference, like you walk off a floor, you're listening, and all of a sudden you hear a whole bunch of people laughing in the right direction, you know that's where everybody is, right? So you instinctively start to move and walk towards that space. But most of us aren't consciously saying, okay, I'm gonna pause and listen, right? But our body is picking up so many signals that we can't even process that we're making decisions before we can even process them. So we have to leverage all of those sensory elements and help our us cognitively navigate spaces intuitively.

It's it's great, and it's so good to have such a good, a really clear explanation of why this is so important because I think we all know why, but it's really good to have an actual understanding so we can now bring it to our own people and say, actually, no, no, we all know why, but this is why, you know. Um and Noelle, I want to come to you now because as I mentioned, that Mobility Mojo has just mentioned or launched our new neuroinclusive measurement tool. But a lot of people would say that this whole space is very subjective and it's very down to personal preference. So I wonder, can you give us an explanation of what is something that we are measuring, how we're doing it, and then an example of something that we actually can't measure, and we would have to ask a person directly?

So you can't measure how a space feels, but you can measure how the condition that shapes it. So you can measure the conditions that shape how a space will make you feel, and it's exactly like Kay just said by using wider and light and things, and you know, you can have light levels and flicker, um, background sounds and noise and echo, um, you can have temperature and air air quality, so all of these are measurable, and and so then each one has a real effect on the person and what they feel in the space. Um, and so first of all, the basic thing to do would be to establish what's in the building and what works in the building. So a walkthrough uh assessment of the building is the first place I'd start. And there's lots of things that buildings probably already have loads going for it, um, and things that are working already, they're probably not aware, but you could have lots of planting in a building, you could have quiet rooms, or you could have personal control, as we said, over the lighting and the temperature. Um, there could be calm places or busy places, clear signage and wayfinding, and even as Kay said, something about the the light, the natural light coming in and views outside of greenery and space outside, all of that the building may well have, but the first thing you need to do is establish what it has, and part of that would be to engage with people who are working in the building, because as you say, not one size fits all. So an open plan working space, for example, might be exhilarating to one person but exhausting to another. Um, and so and a quiet room won't really feel useful unless everybody understands that they can use it too, that it's it's open to everybody. Um so to to talk to people and ask people good questions, you know, kind of contained questions, not too loose, not too broad, can focus and and engage who you know the employees working in the building. Questions like where is it hardest to concentrate? Where do you go to reset, and and what one thing would make a big difference? You know, so we'll kind of you'll get a lot of insight from all of that. Um and then when you've gathered all the information, uh I like to always say the Pareto, the 2080 Pareto rule works very well, the 8020, sorry, I've got it backwards, and um and so focus on low-cost, high impact um things, you know, so that things the things that'll have the widest benefit for the most amount of people there. And uh it could be sorting out lights if there's flicker or having a pod or camera colours or zoning, all of these, you know, individually could actually make a huge difference to the widest widest number of people. And then the next step is to reassess, so having prioritized what you want to do and then reassess and then implement the things that you've established and that you've listened to people and then re-engage, reassess and just implement more, and have it as a working process where you're engaging people all the time, you're listening to them, and the most important part of that is to give feedback to people. So you're saying to them, we've heard you, this is what we've implemented, this is why we've implemented, and it's a road, it's a journey, and we're continuing to to build on this all the time. So so everybody remains engaged. Um, and so that's that's where I think is the most important way to do this.

Yes, so really it it is about knowing your space, knowing who's going to occupy your space, and then understand your space and those that are within it, really. Um, so let's take a building now who's just undergone a refurb, so they've done loads of work on it, but now the builders are done. They're leaving and the workplace can go back to its regular scheduled programming. So this question is to both of you when the refurb is done and when the builders and designers have left, Noelle, I'll come to you first. Who should now take ownership of this? Is it facilities, HR, maybe the employee resource group? Who takes responsibility for continuing to measure the neuroinclusivity of that space?

I think sometimes it depends on the actual building and the type. So if it's a multi site organization, it's I think better to have somebody who's in a leadership role who can actually be over HR and facilities management and they're leading. Um but it really it needs sorry, it needs um facilities. management and HR it's kind of a combination um and they they all need to be involved there needs to be ownership there because facilities will they'll be the ones to fix the lighting they'll be the ones to move the furniture and the wayfinding signage and and cleaning and consumables they'll be the ones to implement that but then HR will be the ones to implement policies and to get feedback from people and training it's it's all going to be part of that as well so it's kind of a bit of a combination but I do think that if it's a large building or complex where you need management or you need um the the guys at the top the champions leading this and driving it forward all the time.

And Kay w what what would you say then would you say it's a team effort as well?

Yeah I'm gonna say it's everyone. I'm gonna say it's the occupiers you know I I mean y I can design a space that is beautifully designed and neuroinclusive if then people go in and they don't you know their behavior uh doesn't support the thing. So for instance a lot of a lot of the issues that we're dealing with right now spaces are too loud or you're sitting next to a loud talker because they're not going into a room that we've designed for them to go into when they are on phone calls or if you if you know there's a quiet room but you're insisting on staying in one spot you know being like a potted plant and never moving right so a lot of this is behavioral. So having the users understand not only their own sensitivities but understand how other people function and to have like a new etiquette in the workplace I think is important. I think the facility managers Bobby you and I have talked a lot about this right I can design a space that has the most amazing lightscape but then the facility guy comes in is like I don't want to have all these different bulbs I just want to have to store one so I'm gonna change out all these things and you know put a standard fixture in it. You just negated all the things that we just did right or if the HR team isn't supporting it by allowing people maybe to make the little adjustments that they need to make or the flexibility they might need to need or the IT guys aren't installing closed captioning or overriding things or taking things out then then it's being sabotaged. It can be sabotaged by almost anyone across this and and in many cases it's it's never intentional. It's lack of understanding why we did it in the first place. And so there is a massive educational campaign to help people understand their own situation, their colleagues situation how we've designed the space to be able to support that so that we really can create spaces where everyone can thrive.

Yeah teamwork and the team needs to work but the team also needs to communicate is what I'm getting and Kay let's let's then move away from the building that has gotten the refurb. So say now we're in a place that can't quite do a refurb but they are really passionate and they do want to dedicate some time and energy into being more neuroinclusive. Can you give us some examples of some CapEx light um initiatives that we can take forward in the kind of the short term that aren't going to break the bank necessarily yeah so you just described 90% of people right you know most people don't have the ability to create everything from scratch across their entire portfolio or their space they're dealing with existing space.

So first thing is can you offer some variety and choice don't give everybody the exact same desk no option no choice give give a little bit of options creating a quiet area in the space can be really important and go a long way kind of like that quiet car. Look at your finishes if if people are staring at a bright red wall and they're getting anxious or agitated etc I can probably tell you why right start thinking about the materiality start thinking about the sounds thinking about lighting are there areas that maybe somebody can control or dim the lighting for people that are prone to getting migraines or headaches from bright lights or lights that they can't control. Are there areas that are naturally warmer and naturally cooler and do can people navigate to those spaces? So I I think we need to start thinking about um having options and choices and a lot of people say okay we need things to be flexible. The most flexible thing in any environment is the people and so if you can create even small areas that they can go to that and they get up and move and go to those spaces that can meet a lot of the needs but they have to be empowered and encouraged to do so. And I think it's about intelligently designing spaces. Often people will throw in a collaboration space right in the middle of where other people are trying to work and kind of do heads down work and then they wonder why nobody sits there. You know often it's because they didn't have permission from the managers to sit in a space. They were viewed as not really working or that they're too exposed in those areas or they're too adjacent to other people who they then are going to feel uncomfortable around and feeling like they're bothering them and it's gonna annoy each of them. So creating just even little pockets of areas that people might have a little bit of options and choice and materiality lighting sound those things I think are some of the steps that we start to encourage people to look at.

Yeah and I think it's you're both making such good points and I know that you know everyone on this call and everyone who's listening will be able to relate to it in that say you are a facilities manager and you have a budget every year that you want to spend on office chairs for example chances are when you go to a supplier to get your office chairs with that budget that supplier is going to do more than one chair for a similar price range right so maybe just have more than one option of a chair that someone can sit in in an office or when you're onboarding someone if you're a company that that you know lets them choose their office furniture don't just say here's the chair you're gonna have and here's the desk you're gonna have say okay you know you can have a figure in your head and say we're gonna spend this much on this person's work desk and let them choose between maybe two or three options that are within that same price range and that would could really make the difference to someone and again we're talking about really harnessing people's efficiency and productivity here at work.

Yeah I I can I break a myth here yeah go ahead and like lightning is going to strike me dead in about a minute because I'm about to to speak sacrilege um not every chair has to be ergonomic okay and and and I I ergonomic chairs were designed to support us doing something we should never have done in the first place which is sitting for long periods of time. The best position is your next position we need furniture that actively encourages us to be active and move. Our bodies were never designed to sit stagnantly for long long periods of time of time. If you're an air traffic controller I want to give you the most tricked out ergonomic chair I can find because you have to sit for long periods of time. But in office designs we we really look at this and we say okay if I want a phone room and I don't want people to squat in there then don't make it comfortable enough that they want to squat in there right if I have a short exchange area or a stand you know space design it for the intent and so we really look at are these long-term settings or short term settings and if it's a short term setting you really don't want to have ergonomic furniture so let me just give you an example of how a designer can make choices that can help control behavior. So McDonald's they designed their chairs initially to be comfortable for 15 minutes. After that you start to ache and they're not really very comfortable because they don't want you sitting there for more than 15 minutes. They want you to come in eat and go because they got a whole group of people that are coming okay Starbucks on the other hand when they first started they had these big huge comfortable seats that you barely once you sat in it you could almost not get out of it because who wants to go to a coffee shop if nobody's hanging out so they intentionally designed the chairs so that it would be hard to leave and you wouldn't really want to but then they became so popular that their furniture shifted to be more quicker exchanges more business people maybe round tables because I really don't want people with laptops sitting there for five hours right like I want you there but maybe rotating a little bit more. They now have gone back to the loungier stuff because right that they they've realized kind of what the intent is the choices that we are making as designers determine how you are going to act in the space. And we need to be asking ourselves what do I want you to do? Do I want you to sit here for five hours and never move?

Or do I want you to be here for half an hour and then you're gonna get on your way and go someplace else and that determines whether you should have ergonomic furniture or not in each setting I'm I'm so happy you have just busted that myth and I also nearly forgot that I was hosting this it was so interesting because I was I was really hooked at everything you were saying it was amazing. Noelle I'm gonna come to you next now and I want to talk about a phrase that I'm a really big fan of so nothing about us without us and this is something that I know we'll we'll all agree that it's really really important but I wonder can you help us tread the very fine line of bringing our neurodivergent colleagues into the room not having a conversation without them because it's nothing about us without us but also when they're in the room how do we move away from assuming that they are going to take on the burden of this entire project right because just because they're in the room it doesn't mean that they're gonna be able to or gonna want to take on the entire task so how do we find the balance in this yeah it's it's just it's so important to give people real input without making them the project team and for this it has to be organizations do the groundwork first and then offer easy optional ways for people to continually give feedback.

It's communication is key here all the time but people feeling that they they they are being heard and it's important what they say is understood. And so like that the the organization does the groundwork first can be an assessment of the building and then pull people in and find their reactions and at least then they have something to the basis to go on to give feedback. It's not like they're starting from a blank page which can be overwhelming. So now they have some at least guidance and and way of looking at it and being being informed about what a sensory environment can include. And and there's lots of different ways to get feedback. It can be an anonymous survey it can be one on one it can be um just you know a group feedback or a group conversation and and it's and that's why it's important to allow people to have different modes of input but not expecting an immediate answer to give people time to think about it um and then make it a choice. They don't have to be part of the conversation or they can they can choose to you know take a take a take the survey or not um and then so that's different ways of feedback. Even if they were w walking through the the assessment you know as part of the walkthrough of the building I think that's really interesting you know because people's eyes always get opened you know when you're when you're asking people different questions about the environment that they're working in. They their eyes open and they see what exactly is the environment that they're working in and what the options are. Because most of us we kind of coast along and we don't we don't think about it. It's only when it's brought to our attention or people feel you know gosh this could be different or I I understand completely where K is coming from with the whole working desk environment the choice. I don't like people walking behind me. I get distracted. I like the light and but but other people I'm always fascinated they can work in places where there's a lot of distraction and activity and they can just focus I'm thinking I can't do that. I have to put the the headphones on. So it is interesting. So it's it's it's always communication bringing people involved different options and ways that they can give feedback but it is again a process where the feedback loop is happening all the time they can see progress and that they can feed back more.

So I'm gonna I'm gonna say something really controversial. Dropping all the bombs if they can and please before you judge because I know every single one of you is about to judge me on this call please listen to what I'm actually really like listen to the the whole thing and think about this. I I actually we we've done multiple workshops and and we've been doing all kinds of engagements. I actually believe our sensory intelligence is incredibly poor. Most of us have been suppressing this stuff for so long and we've gotten so good at it that many of us don't really even understand what our own triggers are. Some some that are very acute absolutely but there's a whole bunch of hidden things that we just kind of think it's a quirk or we don't really necessarily understand why we are reacting the way that we do. And when we ask people what they want um two things tend to happen. Sorry to say this number one people tend to answer the question for what they think they want. Oh if I answer it this way then I'll get my private office or if I answer it this way then I'll be able to do this right and or they uh they don't even understand like the the ramifications of it. So I'll just give you an example people often ask for quiet Quiet is creepy. If you are in a space that is not supposed to be quiet and it is eerily quiet it's really really unsettling and it's and it's in your DNA it's triggering to us right if you seek it out that's one thing. And so what we have found in many of these workshops where we ask people what it is that they want they they tell us what they think they want but maybe they haven't experienced it or maybe they don't know what the other options are and so they tend to be very limited in what they're asking for. And so we've been doing a lot of work right now with the the University of Cambridge to come up with a workshop that really kind of helps people understand physically from a cognitive standpoint and from a sensory standpoint what your capabilities needs and requirements are. And when we ask okay well what what are what are some design solutions that could help solve this they tend to have very limited answers because they don't necessarily even know what they could be asking for. And then when we take all of our research and say here are a whole bunch of other things you could consider it's like oh my god I didn't even think about that or I didn't know that was an option or what about this right it's kind of like if you go to a doctor and the doctor looks at you and says what do you think what what do you think you need to do right so so just because you have a lived condition does not necessarily make you an expert in that lived condition and it might make you an expert in your lived condition but maybe not somebody else's so helping people peel back the onion to understand what the options even are that they could or should be considering is an engagement that I think is very worth doing because if we just listen to what people are asking for they may not even A really understand what their real triggers are and I know that sounds insulting and I'm sorry to say that but I think a lot of people really don't and uh they may not understand how to solve it. And I'll give you just an example of this. A lot of women that we have found in our research are triggered by visual stimulation at a much higher percentage than men. Women tend to like things to be more pretty more you know complex more layered etc but it has to be ordered and structured. If it gets out of order or it gets chaotic then they can't function and they can't focus. If I if I come out and all of a sudden my kitchen is in chaos or all the pillows on you know something something very small and minute that we just say oh God what I'm just being weird about this but it's not it's triggering because it's visual chaos and women are far more affected negatively by visual chaos than men tend to be but most women don't even acknowledge or really own that that's a real thing. You're not just being weird you're not just being particular but that's a real trigger from a cognitive standpoint that will stop you from functioning at a higher level because until you deal with that you can't really fully focus on anything else. And so that's the kind of thing that that this in-depth research is helping us understand more that a lot of people may not even know about themselves or just kind of push off as oh that's just me being weird or I didn't even really pay attention to that.

Everything you have just said Kay is is so true and if it was true ten years ago it's even truer today because we've all come through the global pandemic and the the return to work you know after we were all working in our own private spaces and we could control every single element of that space and then all of a sudden you're back in an open work environment going hang on what is going on here it is so true and thank you for dropping another bombshell I do hope there's more to come and we're at the last question now to both of you so Noel I'll go to you just to give everyone that is listening one thing that they can take away one action that they can bring into their everyday lives to foster more neuroinclusivity.

Well I think yeah it has to be education by the sounds of what you were saying Kay the first thing is education and letting people know what a sensory environment is um and get the conversation going and even to just a few colleagues or a small team just get that conversation going. But just hearing you Kay is it's so important because it's so deep that people don't really understand their work environment and what is possible and what their triggers are. So just getting that conversation I would think is the most important starting point and then asking a number of questions like like the ones that I said before about where is it hardest to concentrate where do you go to reset and and what are some big things that might make a difference you know but once they have understood what it is they're they're they're looking at, they're feeling all of that and I'll hand it over to you Kay because I know I know you've a lot more uh research done in this area.

Yeah well I I'm gonna say something just about uh us as humans not not about space um I think one of the biggest challenges that we have is what we're gonna call the double empathy problem. I think all of us were raised with the golden rule do unto others as you want to be done upon sorry to all the moms out there but that's a bad rule wad it up and throw it in the trash. That is making the assumption that everybody wants what you want. I think in our research what we have found is that one of the most important things is to understand that just because you function in a certain way where you need certain things does not mean other people do as well. And so having a little bit of empathy and understanding and embracing the platinum role doing to others as they want to be done upon. So for all the designers out there you might like crazy patterns and wild things but you're probably short circuiting a whole lot of people and they don't or you might want something very calm but you also have to realize there are people that need some dilation in the space. Some people think very quickly other people need time to ruminate some people are procrastinators and let's just say they're waiting for the adrenaline rush to kick in other people are not and so we tend to judge other people by our own the own way that we sense and we think and we function. And we need to understand that not everybody else does it our way and that doesn't make you right. It doesn't make them right we need to just understand that there is a variety of people out there and that that one size misfits all and have a little bit of empathy and grace in understanding how people really are going to function at a higher level and you know what would be great about this I've got to put one little thing it it goes back to your point about because people are now being more educated about this for example one thing that I hear constantly in work that drives people mad is the loud conversations people on their phones on public transport and maybe it'll make people more aware of people having their own kind of space or quiet and not intruding by being loud and stuff. So it might make people more actually aware in general in general like yeah I I think one of the biggest challenges that a lot of people that are neurodivergent have is that they're being judged. They're being viewed as either being difficult or not responsive or awkward. And rather than judging them by that I think we need to embrace the strengths that they they bring and to realize that not everybody does things. I mean look I'm going to say I'm the mother of five I have three kids that are are neurodiverse very high functioning and and we probably didn't figure out later in some cases but um my son who's ADHD it's a miracle we're both alive on the planet today because he he I used to view in high school that he procrastinated okay a lot of people that are ADHD they tend they tend to be viewed as procrastinators and and he would you know but what I never really understood until now is for a lot of people that are ADHD time is binary. It's either now or not now and an assignment wasn't due now wasn't until 11 o'clock the night before and he if he would have started two or three weeks in advance he would have just been spinning because it was too many. He needed that adrenaline kick at the end to energize him and to focus his attention so he could get it done. And he always did an amazing job. But as his mother a non-procrastinator it drove me insane watching him function in this way but now that I know that he functions that way and why he functions that way and how important it is to him to function that way I I'm much more relaxed about it and I know he's got it.

Yeah.

I I'm laughing because there's a lot of ADHD in my house as well and everything you've said makes so much sense and I I have a lot of examples of it too and I'm also now really excited for your parenting book that I hope you're gonna release.

Even though the book we did write I was well and told I I I never I really was hoping I would get through my entire life without ever having to write a book and then I was told no you are writing this book.

But the real book that I want to write is The Mother of Five is They Haven't Killed Me Yet and all the stories of all the stuff those kids have put me through that is a novel worth writing I'm just gonna say I think yeah I think we can start the pre-order list for that right now after this leadership for H O K and Noelle Daly the compliance and standards officer at Mobility Mojo thank you both so much for sharing all of your knowledge and all of your insights and expertise in this area that we're all so passionate about but we're also very uncertain about as well so I really hope that for those of you listening we have helped you um bit bust some myths and gain a better understanding so thank you all so much for joining us.

We're now going to move on to the live for transcripts or to learn about how you can make your building more accessible visit mobilitymojo.com forward slash podcasts