Inside the World's First Autism-Friendly University

SPEAKER_00 0:00

For transcripts or to learn about how you can make your building more accessible, visit mobilitymojo.com forward slash podcasts. This is Designing for the Range. What is Neuroinclusion and how do we achieve it? Join Mobility Mojo as we explore what neuroinclusion looks like for you and your buildings across the world.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

In this episode. So my name is Megda Mustafa. I'm the founder and principal of Studio TM, which is an architectural design consultancy firm specialized in autism and neuroinclusive design.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

My name is Fiona Ernie, and I am the Autism Support Officer in Dublin City University.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Thank you both so much for joining me on this episode of Designing for the Range. Magda, I'm gonna come to you first and ask you to talk to us a little bit about the work that you do and maybe give us an idea as to why you got into Neuroinclusion.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Thank you, Bobby, and I'm delighted to be here. So I first got into this space of neuroinclusive design about 25 years ago. We were asked to design one of Africa's in the Middle East's very first schools for autism. And I was looking for guidelines and standards to help us in that process, and we found absolutely nothing. So at the time I was working on my doctoral dissertation on a completely different topic and took the dangerous decision of discarding almost a year and a half of work to focus on autism design as the topic of my dissertation. So with the school, we set up a set of experimental classrooms. We worked, I embedded myself observing students in the classrooms. And through the course of about a year and a half of research, we were able to develop the first version of the Aspects Design Index.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

That's amazing. And 25 years ago as well, like people are talking about neuroinclusion as if it's a new hot topic in 2026, but you're like, guys, this is old news. Um, Fiona, I'll come to you then next. Thank you so much for also joining us on this episode. How did you get into neuroinclusion and what kind of work do you do?

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Hi, Bobby. Um, so I have been working with autistic children and then teenagers for many years. Um this was around 25 years ago. So back then there was definitely um a knowledge gap on what autism is and and how it presents differently in everyone. Um, and I'd worked in so many various clinical and educational settings that um I suppose there there was probably more of a theory out there that one size fits all. So I decided to study autism specifically, and I did my postgrad in autism and adults, and from there, I suppose I just got a very deep understanding of, I suppose, my knowledge gap over the last other while I've been working in this area. But one of the main, I suppose, new learnings for me was around um the environment and communication and how those two factors can really make a positive or a negative difference for artistic people of all ages and in all different environments.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

And you mentioned that one size does not fit all. That's why we're here today as part of the Designing for the Range series. Um, Magda, I want you to tell us a little bit about the Aspects Design Index and what problem you were trying to solve when you started creating it. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

So the Aspects Design Index, I think it's important first to clarify that it is not a guideline. It's not prescriptive. It doesn't tell you what to do, but it's a framework of a series of architectural criteria and constructs that we then need to think through and about as we're designing for autism. So it's not prescriptive. It doesn't tell you what to do, it tells you what to think about as you're designing. And it was developed over two iterations. So I talked about the earlier research. The first earlier research that we did 25 years ago developed the first seven criteria that are really about the spatialization and the organization of a building. We talk about acoustics, how to organize spaces and compartments, how to build in predictability and spatial sequencing. So concepts that help you organize the building. That was the first iteration. The second iteration of aspects talks more about the tectonics or the operational qualities of a building. And today we have Fiona Early from DCU with us. And Fiona and DCU were really instrumental in helping us create that second layer and that second level of aspects because it was created in conjunction with the project that we worked on together that we'll be talking about today. So that second layer looks at things like color, materiality, furniture, lighting, how we operate our spaces and program activities within it.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

And we will definitely get to Fiona talking about um DCU in just a moment, but I want to ask, you mentioned that the first um iteration of Aspects had seven concepts. How many concepts do we have today, 25 years on?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

So we have 15 concepts in total. And I wanted just to talk about the problem that Aspects addresses, and it was really about trying to fill that gap in the standards and best practices that were available to architects. When we started 25 years ago, there was nothing in the field that could guide architects or designers in thinking about space for autistic individuals. I still have a letter that I received from the International Building Council that it was responsible at the time they were issuing and publishing standards for other disabilities. And the letter said in response to my question about any standards or codes or best practices for autism. It said, and I'm paraphrasing phrasing, we do not have, nor do we know of, any standards anywhere in the world that will help guide designing architecture for autism in 2002. So ASPEX is really trying to fill that gap.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Wow, that that's amazing in 2002. And um, Fiona Magda has alluded to the work that you are both doing in Dublin City University today. Um, and indeed for the last number of years. I am biased because I am a DCU alumni, so uh that is full disclosure. But Fiona, can you talk to us a little bit about how DCU is the world's first autism-friendly campus, which is fantastic? And talk to us a little bit about the journey that yourself and Magda have gone on.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

So that um that came about from Adam Harris having a meeting with the then president of DCU, and it it was it was basically a conversation on how universities can have challenges for many students and for autistic students in relation to the environment would be one aspect, but also communication, lack of awareness. A piece of research then um was, I suppose, produced to just highlight, and again, like Magda says, it's not prescriptive, but to suggest ways in how higher education can be more autism-friendly, and a lot of it comes down to good practice, and that's good practice in design and communication and teaching. So I think really how that where I came into the role was then um when the research was published, a set of principles were embedded, and I liked the idea that for the first time I was going somewhere into a place where there was already a set of principles that were a guide that I could refer to. They hold credibility from senior management down. So um my role then was to help embed those eight now nine principles across campus. Out of those nine principles, at that time there was around 42 key actions. Some were small things related to having quiet hours or um providing awareness, and some were some were bigger. But the whole, I suppose, project really now has evolved more into just a way of a way of working. Um we don't really refer to it a project now, it's more I think things organically happen as opposed to having to refer to key actions and principles. Um so that that was that's really the how it started. It started with a conversation, and I think we are now at the stage where there are a lot of the key actions have naturally become embedded. I don't need to be involved in them, they just happen. So I suppose my role at the moment now is to keep creating new actions while also checking that the older actions are being maintained.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

And as as I mentioned, um I am proud DCU alumni myself, but I mention it again because um I worked in DCU for a year um on the students' union. So I was working on behalf of the students. It's separate to the university staff as such, but I know from that time that I know that the initiatives within the autism-friendly campus project, um I suppose it's it's for students and staff alike. So it's not just about the student experience, it's also about recognizing that there is staff within the university and this applies to them as well, which I think is worth noting because you know it would be understandable if people think, okay, well, it's a university, so their main focus is on the students that are going to be studying there, but actually you need to consider the the professors and the lecturers and the you know the catering staff, et cetera. So I just wanted to point that out too. Um, Magda, so when it came to starting to work um with Fiona and colleagues in DCU, then how did the design index adapt into a guide for DCU?

SPEAKER_01 10:28

So, first of all, I have to say, and I've said this to Fiona and Adam in the past, but really my engagement in this project was quite an inflection point in the trajectory of our work because it was that opportunity, Bobby, to take what we saw as a framework and put them into actionable guidelines at a scale that was urban, architectural, interior, programmatic. Up to that point, we were using the Aspects Design Index on a project-by-project basis, and it wasn't really informing broader strokes like a guideline. So it was really transformational for all of us and everyone that was involved in the project. So the process, and I have to give credit again to Fiona and her team, but the process that we engaged in was entirely autism voice-informed, right from the outset. So calling for this, establishing our priorities, thinking about what it is that we wanted to tackle, but it was all framed around these engagement sessions that ultimately, because this happened during COVID, it began pre-COVID and then continued post-COVID. So there were some things that we did in person and then later remotely, we conducted workshops, focus groups, sensory audits, sensory walkthroughs of campus, and framed around three main questions. What was working, what was not working, and what would you need to facilitate making this environment more autism-friendly for you as an autistic student? We had the opportunity to really look broadly across stakeholders. So working with, you mentioned the energy and the advocacy of students on campus at DCU was which was quite remarkable. We worked with students from DCU, but we also worked with autistic adults from the community, other community organizations, and of course, representatives from as I am as well as Fiona's office. So it was a very broad stakeholder group that really was able to give us a cross-section of those needs and to understand it. And the process was thinking through all of those challenges and barriers through the lens of the 15 aspects principles. So how we can organize space, things like programming. How can we program and schedule activities in a way to ensure that they're more autism-friendly? So it was a really holistic program. And I think one piece that were I am personally most proud of is that it was not only centered the autistic voice throughout the process, but also it was the autistic voice that reviewed the guideline in the end. So typically, as academics, we send out our work to be peer-reviewed by other colleagues and peers in other institutions, other scholars, other researchers. We did that, of course, but more important to me and to us was that the guideline be peer-reviewed by autistic individuals, people who are students on campuses, designers themselves, advocates for a more autism-friendly world. And the feedback that we got from that group was incredibly helpful and constructive to the development of the final guide.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And so great to hear that um it was all peer-reviewed by those in the community. I know at Mobility Mojo, that's something that we take very seriously. All of our standards and all of our guidelines and recommendations are all based on real life experiences, which I think is the best way to do it. Um, Fiona, so let's revisit DCU. Let's talk about what it's like at the moment in the campus and kind of the difference between now and pre-autism-friendly campus in Dublin City University. What would you say the main changes are? And how do you know that the spaces are still working for those they were designed for in the first place?

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Well, I think um, due to the the way we worked with Magta, it was it was very collaborative and it was across campus. And I think that um probably the first sensory audit of the university was ever done then. And I also think that when we said the word sensory audit, it was very new to a lot of people in disability, in a state, in security, in academia, um, whereas maybe wheelchair access was um standard, but it it gave an opportunity then to explain what sensory meant. Um a lot of people, I think, just thought it was noise and that that could be the understanding back then, but now it like I think the big difference is an understanding of what sensory means, and that it's not just something that some people struggle with, it's something that some people have to go home because of. They cannot get through a full day on campus because of the sensory environment, they can't get through a lecture because of the sensory environment, and it's not a preference for just having things quieter or nicer, it's far more significant than that. Many students would describe it as going into battle every day. So by the from the moment they get off the bus and enter the gates of campus, their their nervous system is hyper-vigilant and in battle mode. And I think that's one of the major things that we've created more understanding about that. So, for example, when DCU holds um large events, like we probably hold one of the largest cultural night events in in Dublin. We're right in the middle of Tramchondra. And but for the past few years, like the um the when the ticket goes out for um if you want to come to Cultural Night now, there is um uh there's two questions on it. Have you any sensory requirements? Have you any communication requirements? So it really is about change as in thinking of people coming to the event before they get there. So in the in so changing the intake form to not just have your accessibility needs, but calling it out, have you sensory requirements? When the students union hold events, they also call me, well, they used to call me, now they don't, now they just go ahead. And it's not just about them saying from one o'clock to two o'clock, we're not going to have any music or announcements. It's about them making their event more visible, so easier to find, more predictability, sending out videos to show what the place looks like, which everyone benefits from. But making a point, I suppose the point I'm making is these things just happen. So the DCU events team, they manage Culture Night in a way to make it autism friendly. The students union manage all their big events, academics manage conferences now, they provide quite rooms, but it's not just providing a quiet room, it's letting people know where it is, how to get there, what it looks like inside. Um also I think in relation to we have we have a quite space and it's it's in use all the time. And what I will say is we had reservations about it because it's not monitored. It's in a very busy corridor where there's over a hundred students passing by every day. There and the way that space has been used, it has never ever been disrespected. When students go into that space, they're quiet, they don't gather, they don't chat, and many autistic students would say to me that they can be in that quiet space alone but in company of other people, and and that's where they go for lunch, or that that's where they hang out. So it's that feeling of being in a space with others, but that space suits your sensory requirements at that time. Um we're in so we have adapted to the physical environment by the infrastructure, but also I suppose the awareness and starting conversations around why do we have these spaces and why is it important to increase predictability and lower surprise. We're now in the um we're now in the process of um building a second one of these spaces on St. Pat's campus, but also just like making it more scattered, installing sensory pods in places that we know they're needed. So we don't need them in the nuclear hours, but we need them in older buildings. We're also retrofitting labs because the lighting is not suitable, and we're putting pods outside of noisy labs. So there's still significant issues to as there is going to be 17,000 students, but there is more, I think, pre-planning and awareness of the impact of the sensory environment across campus, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

It does make sense. And Camera, you're bringing me back to my students' union days in DCU, because I'm sure I would have been the one calling you um four or five years ago in advance of all the events. Um I used to be the vice president for diversity and inclusion in DCU, so I suppose that's why I have all of this background insight into just the lengths of work and the extent of it that they've really gone to over in uh Dublin City University. And you mentioned, Fiona, about recognizing that it's actually not a nice to have. It's it's a requirement, it's a need for students to be able to really engage and be as efficient and as productive as they would like to in the university. Um, this is not a nice to have, it's it's a need. And we speak about that when it comes to workspaces as well. So my next question is to both of you. Um and it's about if there's someone listening who would like to work on creating a more neuro-inclusive workspace. Magda, I'll ask you first, where do you think they should go for insight or information when it starts that process?

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Well, the first thing I would say is that they need to be careful that they're not doing tokenistic gestures because there's a lot of cases that we're seeing more and more of where people, and I'll quote Adam Harris here, this box-ticking virtue signaling processes that tick, done. We've put in a sensory room or we've put in a sensory pod somewhere, but there isn't that infrastructure. And I'm so delighted to hear Fiona talk about. We haven't had an opportunity to talk recently about the changes that have been happening at DCU as a result of you can see this shift in culture, that it's much more holistic. It's not about these fragmented little drops that end up not being used very well because they're not part of a larger system. And so that would be the first thing that I would say to anyone who's interested in doing this kind of work to understand that it is a holistic process. It's a very layered process. And although that may sound like an expensive process, it doesn't necessarily have to be because there's a lot you can do in changing culture and how things are programmed and operated that can go a long way in supporting neuroinclusive needs. So it's not enough just to create a quiet room or a sensory room that we see so much of. Because if you just do that and don't think about the context and the culture that Fiona was describing within which all of that Sits, all you'll be doing is creating an island of neuroinclusion within a sea of neuroexclusion. And it's not useful anymore. So that's the first sort of framing I would encourage people to think about. The other thing is I would encourage people to think about starting with auditing what they currently have. Those sensory audits that we did originally at DCU, some of the things that we discovered were tactics that autistic students had devised for themselves to use campus in a way. There was one student that was using these quiet pathways around behind the buildings and around the buildings to navigate campus as opposed to the central mall where there was so much noise and crowds. So every space will have sensory infrastructure that is already in place that can be built upon. So the first thing I would encourage folks to do who are thinking about doing this kind of work is to work with someone like us or someone who knows how to do these sensory assessments and sensory audits, but to do them in a very holistic way and think about the entire context within which their workers or students or employees are existing. And once we know what sensory infrastructures we have already in place, it would be to identify in a prioritized way, because we do these engagement sessions and focus groups, and we get lots and lots of ideas and challenges, but to devise a mechanism by which you can prioritize those, but again, think holistically and look at the sensory infrastructure you have and think about how you can stitch those pieces together. So if you already have places that your students or your workers go to to transition when they first arrive after a busy, crowded commute and adjust themselves before they enter into the workplace, how can you empower that space? How can you provide the supports that you need and formalize it in a way so it does become a true supportive transition space for that moment of arrival, that going to war, entering battle moment that Fiona was talking about? How can we make it less of a battle by building in a transition space and stitching together what you already have? But also I think it's really important for us to avoid what I call a subtractive neglect bias, this bias that we have that we think that every solution is about building something new or adding something in. Because sometimes the best solution is taking something away, like taking away harsh lighting and maybe not even replacing it with any other lighting, but relying on more softer lighting for certain spaces, taking away patterns and visual distraction and a space that needs to be a cleaner space. So sometimes it's not about doing adding something in, but it's about removing something. It's about removing noise, it's about removing crowds, it's about reorganizing how people navigate so that you can create pockets of calm within the space. And I also think the point that Fiona made about these quiet spaces, I think there's a misconception about these quiet spaces that individuals who are neurodivergent want to be alone. And that may be the case, but it's not always the case. A lot of times it's escaping from an experience rather than going to a lonely experience. So that idea of being able to create a sensory infrastructure that sits in close proximity to other social activities or other work opportunities in a workplace, how can you create space where I can still be part of the group, but in a way that's comfortable for me from a sensory perspective? So I'm not excluded, I'm included, but I'm still safe and regulated and in a space where I can function. And another really important principle for anyone who's thinking about embarking on this kind of work is to think through one of the aspects principles that we call sensory economics. What are the economics of these sensory solutions? Not only how much will it cost me to do this, but what are the costs of not doing it? And in the workplace, this is really important because workplace environments, unfortunately, we use the metric of productivity to measure their success. I'm always uncomfortable with that metric, particularly with the autistic and neuroinclusive community, because a lot of time when you're measuring for productivity, what that ends up happening is you get burnout because you're only looking to meet a target, as opposed to looking at a metric like well-being. If we're regulated and happy and have a sense of belonging within a community, we will be more productive. But when that is your target and you're creating an environment that that's the target that you're measuring towards, you create a much more sustainable environment that people can work in happily. So that notion of sensory economics and thinking about costs in a way that's much more holistic. And then finally, I think the ultimate objective is that change of culture that Fiona described, but also building out an entire sensory infrastructure. So it's not just about quiet spaces, but it's also about wayfinding navigation spaces. It's also about creating choice and opportunities of places to work and sensory qualities of those spaces to work and designing them.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Love that. Wow, there was so much in there. Um, and I love the point you make about the cost of not doing it because at Mobility Mojo, we talk about the cost of retrofitting, right? So if you're designing an office and you don't consider physical accessibility or neuroinclusion when you're designing the office, then you go back and you do the accessibility assessment and then you figure out, oh my God, this is not accessible at all. And then you have to pay to have all of those recommendations put into the office. But actually, before that, even what is the cost if you never do that at all? What are you going to be missing out on? And you do also make a really good point, um, a conversation that we have all the time, and I encourage listeners to go back and listen to other episodes that we've done in this series about the quiet room that becomes a storage room. You know, it's about making sure that it stays fit for purpose and that that it is continued to be used for the purpose, which I know, Fiona, you've spoken about that the quiet spaces within DC or are still being used for their desired purpose today, which is really good and really um impressive because I know they've been around for a while. So, Fiona, I'll ask you the same question. If there was someone in a workspace who would like to start working on developing a more neuroinclusive office environment, where do you think they should start and where do you think they should go for valuable insights?

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Yeah, so um I will just add to add to Magda, because Magda covered a lot there. Um I think you need to look at the the kind of the theory and the practice. So, like there is a huge amount of of theory which has come from practice in in Magda's guide. So I would definitely that that for estates and DCU that would be the starting point to read that, to read the guidelines and to because they provide the how but also the why, because there's student and staff input there into this is the why. And I think in general, when people understand the why we're doing things, there's more so to speak. I don't like that word, but buy-in. So definitely um you need you need the theory, you need to understand even what neuroinclusion means, what does neurodiversity mean? Also, I think to really start with neurodivergent people, to ask them to have them like with any project from the beginning to the end, and I and I also think about kind of that the cost of retrofitting, because we have been through that removing lighting from um labs that were really, really old and it's very expensive. But also I think in in planning spaces, um there's many students and probably more autistic students that in a university will say that they are not they don't have a sense of belonging, they feel lonely and they feel isolated. I think the environment is a huge factor to changing that. So I think how do we from the very beginning create a space that invites students to come there? And whether it's playing board games or just sitting in a space that's designed cleverly, how can we maybe plant seeds of connection there as opposed to just putting acoustic pods all around campus and in quiet spaces? But I I do think that loneliness and lack of sense of belonging is quite significant within the neurodivergent community, specifically autistic community and DCU. And I think there's a lot of work to be done in how the spaces that we already have, how can we make them a space that students naturally gravitate to and feel comfortable hanging out there and maybe making subconnections.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

You're so right, and I'm really happy that you raised that because we haven't really had that raise before. So thank you for bringing it up. And I think you also touched on a really important point that is to understand the why, you know, because getting you use the phrase buy-in is sometimes really important. For us, you know, we're preaching to the converted. It's it's so obvious. It's it's why wouldn't you? But it's not like that for everyone. So really understanding the why, and no matter how obvious and basic the conversation might seem, for someone, it will be helping them. So thank you for bringing that up, and thank you for bringing up the lonely um epidemic as well, because I do think it's really important. And you both make the point about you know, you don't want to assume that neurodivergent people like being on their own in a quiet space. You actually can want to be around people, you just need to be in a quieter environment. And Magda, I'll go back to something you said about the island of neuroinclusion in a sea of neuro exclusion. I think that is a brilliant analogy. Um, so I would encourage everyone to take that forward into what they do. Um, Fiona, I want to start with you for the last question. Time flies when you're having fun. Um, what is something that you would like to see happen in the future in the neuroinclusive space? Oh, such a huge question.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

You should have started with Magda. Um so what would you like to say? I think it has to begin with, as I just said, I think it has to begin with what is neuroinclusion. Um and and I think that differentiation between Bobby referred to it nice to have and actually it's it's way above and beyond what's nice to have. It's a difference between being able to attend college or not, and because there there can be things out there in media that or even like in universities about what is a reasonable accommodation and how reasonable is that, and is there a cost? So I think more awareness around what it means to be neuroinclusive, and that it isn't actually a preference, it's it's a necessity. So I I think I would begin with that with more awareness.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Yeah, such such a good point. And Magda, I'll come to you and ask the same big question to go out with a bang. What would you like to see happen next in the neuroinclusive space?

SPEAKER_01 33:53

So for me, I'd like to think through sort of the three roles I play as a teacher and an educator, as a researcher and as a practicing architect. So on teaching, I think we need to be educating the future designers about neuroinclusive design. And I was just giving a lecture yesterday to some of my graduate students and with a colleague at the University of Pennsylvania with some of her students as well, to have them include the identity of autism and neurodivergence within the framework of the personas that they're thinking about when they're thinking about who they're designing for. So to broaden the vocabulary of who we're thinking about when we're thinking about human-centered design and who that body is in the spaces that we're designing, and to make sure that neurodivergence is within that definition of the user that we're designing for for everything. We shouldn't have to wait until a project is autism-friendly or is required to be neuroinclusive for us to begin doing that. Because as we know, neurodivergence and autism is everywhere and across every population. So that would be the first thing to educate designers to include the lens of neurodivergence in how they think about design. In research, and it's interesting that Fiona brought up the importance of the sense of belonging and loneliness. I'm currently working with some partners across the Netherlands, led by the brilliant professor Carolina Rief, who is a psychologist at Leiden University. And we're in the midst of a series of projects, all of them looking at well-being and sense of belonging in youth, students, young adults on the autism and neurodivergence spectrum, specifically around the role that the built environment plays. So I couldn't agree with you more, Fiona, about the role the built environment plays. And what has been so interesting in the work that we've been doing is the realization of two things. First, that when you design for the neurodivergent need in mind, you design better for all populations. So we are seeing everyone enjoying a higher sense of belonging and a lowering of a sense of loneliness. When we design, specifically, we're looking at playgrounds in the research that I'm referencing right now, but when we create these playground and outdoor environments using things like the aspects index and the framework, that helps organize spaces, make them predictable, make them comfortable, make them clearer, having sensory qualities that are conducive of socialization, that helps everyone in their sense of belonging, not just the autistic students in that space. The other thing is that when you implement something that we outlined in the autism-friendly design guide at DCU, this concept of reverse inclusion. When you design for the neuroinclusive need first and then include the neurotypical, it's far less a barrier for the neurotypical than the opposite. So a lot of our research is holding up to that hypothesis that when we design for neurodiversity, we design better for everyone. Other research that we've done shows that not only do you design better for everyone, but when you're looking specifically at stress and anxiety in overwhelming sensory, overstimulating city environments, when you provide a space for someone to regulate, not only do you reduce stress and anxiety for neurodivergent individuals, but also the neurotypical individuals that we tested had just as much decrease in their levels of stress and anxiety than the neurodivergent participants in the study. So not only is it as beneficial to both groups, but the metric of how beneficial it is is almost identical, which was quite interesting to us. And finally, on the role of practice, so how we practice design. I would like to see a world where we bring neuroinclusive design consultants into a project as early as possible in the planning phases. Speaking to your point, Bobby, about cost and the cost of retrofitting and the cost of bringing an idea in too late into a project and how much more expensive and disruptive that is. So the earlier we bring neuroinclusive designers into the process, and I always tell my clients, there's never a point that's too late for us to address this, but the earlier we do it, the more systemically we do it, the more holistically we do it, the more powerful it will end up being. But I see our role as neuroinclusive designers and architects as being the cultural translators between the world of neurodivergence and the world of design. So we can speak those both languages, and we our role is to make sure that none of those neuroinclusive needs get lost in that translation to design requirements and architectural space, which I think of as my role in the work that I do.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

I also want to be a cultural translator. That is so cool. That's that's a great way of putting it. And we always say at Mobility Mojo that when you design for the margins, you're designing for the masses as well. So thank you for bringing that up. And we also always say that disability does not discriminate or wait. So just because you think it doesn't apply to you right now, you never know what direction your life will go. And also statistically, the chances of you having a workplace where no one has a disability or identifies um as disabled, you know, that's statistically not really going to be the case. So we would always encourage you to never wait. Um, Magda and Fiona, thank you both so much for joining me on this episode. I always feel like my brain is expanding when I'm having these conversations. I feel like I'm learning so much. And Fiona, thank you for taking me down memory lane um in DCU. I really enjoyed it, guys. Thank you so much for that conversation. It was fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

You're welcome. Thank you for having us, Bobby. Mobility Mojo thanks you for joining us for this episode of Designing for the Range. Together, let's open the world for everyone.